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DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Maria wrote on 24 May 2009   History has many examples of sick mad people like Hitler , Mussolini etc..Like Bivolaru they had the gift to make stupid and low education people to believe them and become fanatic robots and be guided by him and some few instructors ( all of them faithful dogs of him without the right to have opposite opinion) in all their life aspects. Bivolaru is judged by many courts in Romania for common crimes of penal code (like this of pederasty ), put in prostitution young girls, and more and he is condemned in many years in prison .He achived to escape in Sweden and get political asylum pretending that he was condemned for political reasons. BIG LIAR , he is not representing any political or other organization...neither YOGA. What he is teaching is a mixture of some HINDU , Muslims , Christian , Yogi , Taoist , BLACK MAGIC , and old philosophical issues. and mixed all of them together. His theory is full of holes and cant stand against in a public debate ..like he was many times invited ( in TV or in public) , but he prefer to talk to his students and who has a different opinion is expelled and punished. He demand to be called from Gregorian in past years Greeg and after when you speak for him you must call him G yes with G CAPITAL ( do this remind you GOD ?????)....   1   RESPOND    EDIT     EMAIL Maria  DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 24 May 2009   Actually "pederasty" is not a crime according with the romanian penal law. And Gregorian Bivolaru is not accused, as far as I know, of anything related with male homosexuality. He is accused in one trial of alleged sexual relations with a minor girl(she is not a minor at the present time) and illegal crossing of the romanian border, and in other trial is accused of human trafficking and anti-semitic propaganda(along with other MISA school leaders). Besides, as far as I know, male homosexuality constitutes a great taboo for most of the MISA's adepts and is quite openly rejected by them and only the female homosexuality is accepted and even integrated as an option in some erotic practices advocated on yogaesoteric, MISA's official website(you can check yourselves the acceptance of the female homosexuality by using a google search with the keywords "Bagalamukhi", "exemplificare", "yogaesoteric", and after that using the google's translator).   2   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 24 May 2009   Now, concerning the syncretic character of the MISA's body of practices and theories, there exists indeed a quite peculiar mixture of Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist and Christian elements, but as far as I know in this mixture is not included any significant element borrowed from the islamic traditions. MISA's courses includes elements of Hatha Yoga, elements of Tantric Hindu meditations, worship and rituals(particularly concerning Shiva and the ten Mahavidyas - Kali, Tara, Tripura Sundari, Bhuvaneshvari, Tripura Bhairavi, Dhumavati, Chinnamasta, Bagalamukhi, , Matangi, Kamalatmika), elements of Tantric Buddhism(a heavily modified technique of Phowa, some elements from the Kalachakra tradition and rituals and meditation in relation with the five Dhyani Buddhas), elements of Taoism(for example some erotic techniques in which are used some sexual postures as a curative remedy - I don't know the exact source of inspiration for those informations that I saw presented in some theoretical printed materials of MISA's advanced courses, maybe it is Mantak Chia's work but I may be wrong in my assumption), and even some theories and practices concerning the angels hierarchy(maybe inspired from Kabbalah or Western occultism).   3   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 24 May 2009   For me the most uninspired attempt of MISA syncretism is the one concerning the mixing of yogic and tantric beliefs and practices with the eastern orthodox christian practices. I mean, for the vast majority of the eastern orthodox christians the mixing of the christian way with rituals, "exemplifications" and meditations dedicated to various hindu or vajrayana deities would seem to be a complete nonsense because it would be in flagrant contradiction with one of the ten commandments and it would contradict also even the meaning of the concept of christian "orthodoxy". Besides, MISA's body of teachings lacks a crucial element in what concerns some of the tantric practices and techniques mentioned above(Kalachakra, Phowa, the teachings relating to the Mahavidyas etc.), namely the relevant authentic lineages received from indian or tibetan masters. In all those cases, as I noticed from my past connections with the "school", those teachings were introduced in MISA's courses on the assumption that Gregorian Bivolaru is a former tibetan master reincarnated in Romania that has a knowledge accumulated from his past lives and because of his supposed high spiritual achievements he doesn't supposedly need those types of initiations anymore in this life.   4   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 24 May 2009   The most weird thing I have noticed by reading MISA's advanced theoretical courses(for those classes that I couldn't attend because of me leaving from the school before I could attend them), courses that I have obtained from a friend that frequented MISA's classes far longer than me, is the introduction in MISA's "curriculum" for the advanced practicioners of some conspiracy theories concerning freemasonry and mind control by means of some supposed chips implanted in the brain to the inmates in western states like Sweden(ironnically this is the same country in which mr. Bivolaru received political asylum). Yogaesoteric, MISA's official site, is full of articles concerning such conspiracy theories but I've thought that at least they didn't include them right in their printed courses. It seems that I was very wrong in my assumption.   5   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 24 May 2009   Speaking of yogaesoteric, you can also find on this website some curious materials such as a modified version of "The Protocols of The Elders of Zion"(under a new name of "The Secret Protocols of the Freemasonry Masters") in a website's section entitled "Uncontestable Proof About the Diabolical Plans of Freemasonry", and an article in romanian(an excerpt from a book written by an author who is not a MISA student or instructor, but whose book was highly praised on yogaesoteric) in which the romanian jewish community is accused of having participated in some alleged coup d'etat in 1989 and other nonsenses like this(you can find this article by using a google search with the keywords "yogaesoteric", "Valentin Manoliu", "OTV" and after that you can use google's translator).   6   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 24 May 2009   I have to specify the fact that i have no personal biases against gay people, masonry members or jewish people. I was just trying to indicate some facts regarding such kind of biases that appear in sources like the materials from yogaesoteric that i have pointed for you(by the way, you can find an article which contains strong biases against homosexual men using a google search with the keywords "asaltul diavolilor"). Also, I think that is no need here for three threads concerning the MISA subject, although I have written quite alot today here on this new thread. I would recommend the continuation of this discussion on one of the other two threads.   7   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 24 May 2009   I've tried without success to post in the other thread but my posts are not visible so I'm responding here I would like to invite those who are frightened by Bivolaru's alleged magic powers to read the below Associated Press news story from yesterday. Please excuse the C&P, I want people to be able to read the story and the way this forum is set up won't allow me to post a link. Anyone wishing to view the source article can find it via google Spanish police arrest Voodoo extortion gang 1 day ago "Spanish police say they have arrested the ringleaders of a human trafficking ring that brought Nigerian women to Spain and forced them into prostitution by threatening them with voodoo curses. Many of the 23 suspects arrested in nationwide raids were being charged on Saturday at a court in the southwestern city of Huelva. Police said the arrests were triggered by a woman who told police in February of the gang's intimidation tactics. The gang tempted young Nigerian women to travel to Europe with promises of prosperity and later extorted money and controlled them through intimidation, police said in a statement. The victims, aged 25 to 35, were forced to pay large sums of money to the gang members, who told the women they would go mad or have their souls destroyed if they disobeyed orders given during voodoo rituals that were held in Nigeria involving pieces of their fingernails or hair. Voodoo is a religion practiced primarily in Haiti and parts of Africa."   8   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 24 May 2009   reptilian I just wanted to thank you for your thoughtful, considered and very informative posts. Please keep on posting. People are paying attention. :)   9   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   MARIA responded on 25 May 2009   This is the begin because I study them from inside for more than 6 years and I will write here later all the tricks and games and what exactly they do and how...how Bivolaru push to prostitution ( like common pimp ) fresh girls in Japan bordellos and MenBars ( only for men ) in massage salons and night clubs in Italy and other countries, how they drive them to be camsluts ( make private sex shows with dildos and with other men live in internet ) how he and his private girls of harem ( Corina) they make porno material from girls of the Misa school and shell in internet and also Corina make website with pay members area showing this girls nude and in porno action , pee etc. All details in very soon time ,,,all world will understand WHY all this...VERY SIMPLE for MONEY because all of the above girls they work in massage salons , bordellos , in Japan menclubs , in Italy in sites , in webcam shows etc ....and all money goes to Bivolarou..because the girls do CARMA YOGA HAHAHAHA.. very smart,,,and ofcourse for SEX because he and his instructors they influence so much the stupid fanatics that they can have any girl immediately to do all perverted sexual dreams of them ...and the girls feel that they sleep with GOD....SO SIMPLE.......TO BE CONTINUED......   10   RESPOND    EDIT     EMAIL MARIA  DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 25 May 2009   Maria Thank you so much for your post I'm very sorry to hear that you got involved with MISA and I hope you are coping well after leaving. I understand it can be very difficult to leave MISA. It takes a lot of courage. Good for you! I would just like to make a request that when people post about the victims of this group of criminals, they refer to them as victims, or women, girls, men, whatever they are and not tramps, camsluts, etc. as some former members sometimes describe them. My understanding of the experience of being abused by Bivolaru and his cronies is that it is a highly traumatising experience and that the victims are very confused and distressed and are very likely to worry about whether or not they can trust anyone. It is extremely important that the victims understand that people want to help them and have some insight into the coercive techniques that the criminals use to control and corrupt them. Personally I would never think of a victim as anything other than a vulnerable and abused person.   11   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 25 May 2009   To be honest, much as I admire the hard work and resourcefulness of the people on the exmisa forum, I am appalled that the forum moderators refuse to remove explicit photos of victims if the victims ask for them to be removed. The exmisa forum has even made all of the MISA films available to download to anyone. I don't have a problem with films with MISA VIPs in it, but the pee movies (some including footage of girls who allegedly did not give consent and even some under age girls) should not be made available IMO. It would be an extremely serious criminal offence to make such films available here in the UK and it would surprise me if was not on offence in other countries. The most worrying thing about all of this is that victims may feel they have nowhere to turn to for support as the main forums for opposing MISA do not take care to support and care for victims in the way that they should and instead perpetuate the abuse by making films and photos of victims available online.   12   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 25 May 2009   Nemesis, you say "that the forum moderators refuse to remove explicit photos of victims if the victims ask for them to be removed." Which victimes do you mean? Nobody contacted the forum moderators in this matter till now. No offence, but why do you spread such a lie?   13   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Raul responded on 25 May 2009   "I just wanted to thank you for your thoughtful, considered and very informative posts. Please keep on posting. People are paying attention. :)" I agree, rep. I have not finished reading the forum topic, but I appreciate your standpoints.   14   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Butterfy responded on 25 May 2009   Mahacutra/Nemesis The concept of a "victim" is a relative one indeed. I guess even Bivolaru could be regarded as a victim of his greed or of his sexual obsession. Also the google translator is not a 100 percent reliable tool to read a discussion forum. So since mahacutra is so fond of truth, perhaps she could make some less relative statements on the following points, with the respective apologies for being more or less off topic: - has anyone, either directly or over third parties, asked for their pictures taken from MISA related materials to be removed from the exmisa site? - if yes, has their request been observed? - is there any certainty that all the women in the pictures posted on the exmisa site have given their consent to appear in the materials they were taken from? - if MISA used the materials without the women's consent, would it not be an abuse to post them on a public website? I believe this should get things straight and exclude any suspicion if exmisa is clean.   15   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   MARIA responded on 26 May 2009   The fact thhat many people are brain washed and they dont understand that they are victims and they dont understand that are manipulated and humilated ....DOES NOT MAKE THEM NOT VICTIMS....THEY ARE VICTIMS BUT THEY DONT UNDERSTAND IT ... And if Mahacutra thinks that all those girls sent in Japan to work in men club and offer their company to single men and all their money go to Bivolaru , ARE NOT VICTIMS ...then who is victim in this life.... those girls are not only victims but also stupids , and have some brain wash from Bivolaru and his 10 big instructors ( i had a relation 5 years with one of them..), that are convinced that this is carma yoga and doing prostitution is burning carma,, and ofcourse all money to Bivolaru...he also condamned for humman trafic...   16   RESPOND    EDIT     EMAIL MARIA  DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 27 May 2009   Butterfy, None of the actresses involved in the porn movies produced by MISA has asked us (directly or via someone else) to remove her picture from the forum. Anyway, there are few women exposed in pictures and no victims as far as I know. It was stated several times allready : we only know that some of them did not give their consent for the movies to be sold on the porn market, or any market whatsoever. The important thing that somehow some prefer to ignore is that MISA abused all those women in order to make money. We put the same movies on the forum to prove beyond any doubt that MISA and its students and teachers alike do perform in erotic/porn movies. The women who did not even know they were actually sold out as porn actresses on the European porn market could thus become aware of it and do something against those who used and abused them. Moreover, the movies were not posted so that we could enjoy them, not for us to expose or accuse any of the women there. They are posted as evidence.   17   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 27 May 2009   Had we not posted the movies, MISA would have claimed to this day that those movies do not exist, that we are just slendering MISA, so on and so forth, the usual victimizing that we are so used to. Furthermore, had we not posted the movies entirely, but only screenshots we would have lacked credibility. If I posted on the forum a picture of one of your friends showing only her head, would you have taken my word for it if I said that she performed in this or that adult-rated movie? Or would you rather believe your own eyes when you see your friend 'in action' in the movie? Even more, the movies were on sale via the internet for years. Anyone who owned a valid credit card and sufficient balance could buy them, for real and for quite a cheap price. Plus pictures for free advertising the movie To pee or not to pee for ecstasy (this is in fact how we first discovered them). It is true, before we put the movies on the forum, few of those who watched them knew the story behind the movies   18   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Butterfy responded on 27 May 2009   Mahacutra, Thank you for your half answers to half of my questions. I am not sure if I understand this correctly, I hope I don't... Do you mean to say that KNOWING that the women did not give their consent for the footage to be sold on DVD, you made movies with adult content available for FREE download to basically ANYONE who has an internet connection, without any age restriction at all? I cannot believe this! If this is what actually happened, this makes you IMO a lot more criminal than MISA itself, who in fact only sold it to a few adult people and did not invite the whole world to watch. I am not sure what exactly you were trying to prove with this, but at the moment it only serves as evidence against exmisa and it might get you behind the bars before Bivolaru himself. I think you would only be doing yourself a favor by following the advice that Nemesis gave you. No kidding.   19   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   craig responded on 27 May 2009   FIRSTLY If evidence it should be given to police NOT posted on a public web site. End of story. there is NO EXCUSE for publishing child abuse. It is criminal, it is abuse in itself. Sadly there are people who enjoy this stuff. LASTLY this web site seems to be allowing this crime to be perpetuated and I will be contacting to push for all the references to this stuff to be removed from this public forum especially the links to criminal video   20   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 27 May 2009   Craig, what child abuse are you talking about? Like butterfly, I don't agree with the posting of those erotic movies on the exmisa website, but I don't think there is any footage involving children in them. Those films were sold legally for years in the western countries(especially Denmark), remember? This thing would not have been possible if they included what you claim they contain. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're exaggerating. I hope you're not doing it intentionally.   21   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 28 May 2009   Mahacutra wrote: "None of the actresses involved in the porn movies produced by MISA has asked us (directly or via someone else) to remove her picture from the forum." Actually there existed a case of an exmisa woman(known with the id "Himawari") who in 2007 requested that a certain movie(in which she acted) should not have been made public. Here request was denied and she left the old exmisa forum quite sad, especially considering the fact that she was the one who exposed some very sensitive informations(but refraining from giving the names of other women, if i remember well)about the bussinesses with the strip clubs in Japan, about the movies and so on. But that was another exmisa forum(which does not exist anymore and preceded the actual ones), run by other individuals, forum that at the time wasn't actually open for everyone and was frequented by a much smaller public(mainly MISA students or ex-students).   22   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 28 May 2009   Himawari's case was quite disturbing for me and for others at that time. Then it became to manifest a certain split between exmisa persons who adopted a more cautious position and others who adopted a more radical stance. This thing led to open infighting in 2008 and after that a significant number of the exmisa forum users left the exmisa.ro(or started to enter only rarely) and instead practically confined themselves to write only on forum.softpedia or exmisa (were now are not posted any movies of that sort).   23   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   reptilian My understanding is as follows: There are very serious allegations that some of the girls in some of the movies are below legal age to appear in a porn film (in most EU countries this age is 18). AFAIK Denmark (the only territory where some of these films are sold) is unique in the UE in that girls aged 15 - 17 can appear in porn films providing that they give consent and sign release forms. Such films, while legal in Denmark, would be illegal in the UK, where they would be categorised legally as images of child abuse. There are also extremely serious allegations that some of the girls did not give their consent for footage of them to be exploited in any way and they were given assurances that the films would only be seen by Bivolaru (allegedly for the purposes of discerning which if the girls were suitable to be "initiated" by him). Some girls were told that the footage would be used only in "educational films" inside MISA and signed release forms on that basis. Apparently some girls knew that the footage was going to be exploited commercially and signed release forms on that basis. I may have made a mistake, but this is my impression based on all I have read on the exmisa forum. In fact there is a transcription on the forum where a girl talks of her distress and devastation when she realised that what she considered to be private footage of herself performing sex acts with other girls was included in commercial porn DVD.   24   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 28 May 2009   But I must admit(although I don't like it) that the sad truth is that without actually seeing those movies, alot of people would not have come to believe that the movies actually exists and they are not just a fiction propagated by romanian secret services agents, freemasons or romanian prosecutors as the MISA's PR stated for a long time. I myself did not believe in 2004 what the romanian media was publishing at that time about those movies, and i continued not believing until in 2006 I saw some snapshots from one of those movies on a danish site and I recognized in them some very familiar faces. But if those women were abused the first time when they gave their trust by allowing to be filmed, it's not ok that they should be abused a second time, even by people with very good intentions. So I think that those movies should better be erased from the site. With the exception perhaps of the "Making of Magic Passage", wich is a promotional clip made to one of those films in which Mihai Stoian(Natha's leader, and actually the subject of a scandal in Denmark - you can search on the net if you like) gives an interview about what motivated him along with his wife and other participants to act in that movie. That clip has a very clear promotional character, the intention to use it as a form of publicity is obvious, is short but quite explicit and the people in it knew very well what were doing when they gave the interviews.   25   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   Seriously, There is so much incriminating data posted on emixsa, an overwhelming amount in fact, that I don't understand why the site owner/s did not take it all to the police rather than post it up on the internet. This is a complete mystery to me. I am also very confused and troubled by the tendency of some exmisa posters to refer to the female victims who are coerced into doing sex work as "tramps" and "sluts" and in other demeaning ways. Why do those posters dislike / hate those women and girls so much? Serious question. For me the first shocking thing about all of this was discovering the exmisa site will all the evidence of sexual and other abuse and exploitation by Bivolaru and MISA. At first I was full of praise for the exmisa people for doing such a great job in collecting evidence. The second shocking thing was when I realised that all the films were available to download and that the owners of the site had not gained the consent of victims for explicit photos / footage of them to be posted on a public internet site.   26   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   Then I got thinking about how the exmisa site would affect victims, especially regarding those who are thinking about leaving MISA. I sense that the site may in fact make it harder for victims to leave, as they will fear being judged and abused by people outside MISA as well as by those inside it. Granted, the site may be effective at warning some people about MISA but I know from experience (the poster called naz here being a typical example) that it can sometimes have the opposite effect. I think that the people on exmisa need to have a very serious think about what they are trying to achieve and why because right now a whole lot of things just don't add up.   27   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   sara responded on 28 May 2009   Craig, A few questions: have you ever been to Romania? Have you ever been confronted with Romanian authorities? FYI, the police is gathering evidence on Bivolaru's actions eversince he started his yoga school, if not before. As any other police force in the world, they've got to have an account of any large groups of people who get organised in one way or the other, since such a group might prove to be dangerous to the national security. I am sure you are aware of at least a few instances of tragic events leading to human losses, caused by a 'spiritual' leader who found it appropriate to 'lead' his disciples to sure death. Therefore, such groups are monitored in order to assess their potential danger.   28   RESPOND    EDIT     EMAIL sara  DANGEROUS MAD MAN   sara responded on 28 May 2009   Furthermore, the police is in possession of the MISA porn/erotic movies (remember the 2004 events), it is even possible that they have movies we've got no idea about. Now, considering all the above, considering that the police has been questionning former MISA students & teachers for more than 4 years, would you go to the police? By 'evidence' you should have understood that it is evidence for the people who do not know which of the two to believe: the MISA yelling out that they were not involved in porn/erotic movie-production, or the exmisa forums saying that those movies are for real. "there is NO EXCUSE for publishing child abuse. It is criminal, it is abuse in itself. Sadly there are people who enjoy this stuff." - Craig I could not agree more with you, Craig. However, it is not the case of the exmisa forum. In the MISA movies there are no children. There are young women, some of which might have been under-age at the time of the shooting, but we've got no certainty on this point. We only know from stories told by former students that in MISA's early years there was no age restriction in the MISS Shakti contest. It apparently became an issue with the participation of an under-age girl whose family found out and went after Bivolaru. Only then he said that maybe there should be such a rule. I hope that 'people who enjoy this stuff' is not a casual remark hinting at the exmisa guys. All the best Edited 28/05/2009 10:06:45 by sara   29   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 28 May 2009   nemesis wrote: "There is so much incriminating data posted on emixsa, an overwhelming amount in fact, that I don't understand why the site owner/s did not take it all to the police rather than post it up on the internet." I think(although I might be mistaken) that one of the reasons is the fact that the romanians in general have a very little amount of trust in their police force and in their justice system. There were so many reported cases(in the media or in common life discussions) of alleged corruption over the years that many people really started to look at the police as being something like "the biggest gang in town", to quote some well known hollywood line. :) And a very common perception among the romanians is that in the romanian justice system the winner in court is most oftenly the one who is richer and the most well connected one. So they very often avoid entering a trial, even when they know quite well that they are right.   30   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   sara responded on 28 May 2009   reptilian: Could it be also because the Romanian police has been investigating Bivolaru and his gang (at least officially) for 5 years now and the result of it is plainly... a bitter nothing?   31   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   Just for clarification I don't understand why the exmisa people have not taken evidence to police in their own countries, including those countries that are outside of Romania. Some brave Romanian victims have come forward and stood up for themselves by talking to the police in Romania, which is great. However I have seen women from all over the world in MISA's promotional yoga videos and then the same women in MISA owned adult sites, so it will not only be the Romanian cops who are interested in this.   32   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 28 May 2009   nemesis wrote: "Then I got thinking about how the exmisa site would affect victims, especially regarding those who are thinking about leaving MISA. I sense that the site may in fact make it harder for victims to leave, as they will fear being judged and abused by people outside MISA as well as by those inside it." The same mistake was made by the romanian authorities in 2004. At that time they used the declarations of un underage girl(aged 17 at the time) to incriminate mr. Bivolaru. The problem was that the media did make a huge circus on the girl's expense, publishing not just images with her in thong bikinis(which you could see on every major television channel), but even fragments of her alleged journal in which supposedly she related how she practised group sex with mr. Bivolaru and another women, pee games etc. All the time her identity was revealed and the footages and the text fragments were described as evidences made public by the police. Even more, she was taken by force by the police to take a medical exam to see if she was a virgin or not(a fact that was again transmitted on TV).   33   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 28 May 2009   After the treatment that the witness-victim girl received from the police(she was guarded under some kind of house arrest and eventually she escaped with the help of other people), there's no wonder that she retracted her testimony. Also, a direct effect of these things was the fact that many women who were inclined to make a testimony changed their minds of the fear of a similar maltreatment from the media and the authorities. That's why many of them chose instead to wright on forums under the protection of the anonimity. But some exmisa forum users made the same mistakes as the authorities in 2004 and the group of former MISA students who criticised the movement practically split in two. A large part of those who remained active on exmisa.ro have a more radical stance so this is why you can see so many foul words there. The situation was a lot more different in 2006-2007, before the major arguments concerning the movies problem.   34   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   sara responded on 28 May 2009   Nemesis: Please think about what is demeaning: to call someone doing sex work "tramp" or "slut", or to actually do the sex work? - this is one question. If some of the hot-headed exmisa posters would say instead of tramp "those young (and even not so young) MISA women who choose as a career to reveal their genitals on pornographic websites in exchange of money" or "the amateur dancers who wind up in the Japanese nightclubs entertaining the mob with the display of their God-given breasts & genitals" would this be more acceptable to you? In fact, would it make any difference, since what those girls are doing remains the same act?!   35   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 28 May 2009   Nemesis, another important thing you should be aware of is the fact that the criticising MISA activity is not concentrated on exmisa.ro. Almost 30.000 messages were gathered since 2005 on another romanian forum, forum.softpedia.com, since 2004(with the activity intensifying in 2005). There exists also a a blog section which contains a number of blogs of some former MISA students. And no movies are posted there. Exmisa.ro came into existence in 2007 after another series of infights caused by some attitude of another forum(exmisa.eamped.com) which no longer exists. In the present, on forum.softpedia are posting some old exmisa critics who avoid entering again on exmisa.ro precisely because they had major disagreements with those people who administrate exmisa.ro. I think you see just one part of the picture, no offence.   36   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   Thanks for that insight reptilian I think that there is a definite pattern of behaviour that affects people trying to stop MISA that we all need to think about. For some reason people's personal and professional boundaries go out of the window and they do things they would not normally do in a million years. This also happened with the government agents and cops who tried to stop Osho in Oregon, they did not follow due process and ended up shooting themselves in the foot. My impression is that people are so outraged and offended by events which, had they been written as a work of fiction would be considered too outlandish to possibly be true, that they are overwhelmed with an urgent need to tell other and to prove what is going on and to stop such horrific abuse by any means necessary. The fear of being disbelieved is very great, just because the truth sounds so incredible. So people act before they think and may, in an unconscious phenomena called "parallel process" re-enact the abuse inflicted on the victims. I've said this before but at the risk of repeating myself, when dealing with MISA the more that you feel compelled to break personal / professional boundaries, the more important it is that you maintain them. I have a post it note stuck to my PC screen and it says "Think before you act". I'm not immune to this you see. We all have to proceed with great care   37   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   reptilian You continue to be a mine of very important information Please never feel the need to apologise for this Just keep it coming I have to go and work now but I hope you have a good day :)   38   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 28 May 2009   I was hurrying and I've made a mistake. I wrote something confusing:"Almost 30.000 messages were gathered since 2005 on another romanian forum, forum.softpedia.com, since 2004(with the activity intensifying in 2005)." To be precise, on forum.softpedia existed an old thread which started in 2004 and on it the activity gained momentum in 2005, until autumn, when it was closed by the forum moderators. Another thread was created in the winter of 2005 and this one grew really big, especially in the 2006-2007 period when Claudiu Trandafir(former MISA vice-president) and Simona Trandafir broke off MISA and started a new school, Kamala. There were a lot o people who wrote about their experiences, including some women who actually got directly involved in the Japan bussiness scheme(or so they claimed). Those women became silent when they felt betrayed because some former exmisa friends of them decided to expose publicly the whole range of movies. This problem was not concerning only exmisa.ro, but the media also - the Gardianul newspaper published articles about the movies for about half a year, in a series of articles roughly between november 2007 and april or may 2008 and they used openly exmisa.ro as o source of informations. In the articles were included alot of pictures from the movies with the names of the actors attached.   39   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   "Nemesis: Please think about what is demeaning: to call someone doing sex work "tramp" or "slut", or to actually do the sex work? - this is one question. If some of the hot-headed exmisa posters would say instead of tramp "those young (and even not so young) MISA women who choose as a career to reveal their genitals on pornographic websites in exchange of money" or "the amateur dancers who wind up in the Japanese nightclubs entertaining the mob with the display of their God-given breasts & genitals" would this be more acceptable to you? In fact, would it make any difference, since what those girls are doing remains the same act?! " This has got to be one of the most irrational things that have read recently (and trust me, I've read a lot). You are asking why it's wrong to refer to women and girls who are coerced into sex work as tramps and sluts? They are performing these acts because they have been manipulated, tricked and coerced, as you well know. The girls' actions reveal more about their abusers than they do about the girls themselves, just as your post reveals so much about you.   40   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 28 May 2009   Reptilian, cut the crap, you have made a lot of mistakes in your above posts and you are missinforming people. What is the "significant number" of those you say they don't write on exmisa.ro because of the movies posted there? What is the "significant number" of those who instead write on exmisa (where only Deria writes regularly and also there are posted the movies we talk about) and of softpedia? You are making jokes around here?   41   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 28 May 2009   I had no problem seeing footages with Mihai Stoian in the Gardianul newspaper because mr. Stoian knew very well what was doing, as it can be seen in his interview included in the "Magic Passage Making Of". But besides his and his wife's images, there appeared many images of other persons who I don't think they realised very well what they were doing at the time of the filming. Even mahacutra was very angry when in Gardianul appeared an article about a woman who used to work in the education field and practically suffered some kind of "collateral damage". Despite my open disagreements with her in the problem of the movies, mahacutra is not the cold-hearted bitch some people think she is. Actually her position is somewhere in the middle. Me and some other people insisted that the movies and pictures should be erased(we had very strong arguments about that on forums), while other group of exmisa people would want to see made public all the informations concerning this subject. Mahacutra expressed her opinion that some informations should be made public and others not. There is actually much more information than what is posted on exmisa.ro. I personally still believe, though, that the movies and pictures should be erased, maybe with the exception of some materials like mr. Stoian's interview.   42   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 28 May 2009   nemesis MISA's leadership has somehow forced us to post those movies on the exmisa forums. I myself got fed up with all those lies - "we don't produce movies of any kind", "there is no prostitution or pornography within MISA". It was only after the movies appeared that we started to find out more details about the matter and so. I want to tell you that I was surprised by the reaction of the MISA members: they started to pour out even more lies, saying that the shots actually got stolen by the prosecutors, during the ashram searches in 2004, turned into actual movies and sold... in Denmark. Right, in Denmark, where Mihai Stoian rules. Then Mihai Stoian declared, on yogaesoteric, that he didn't know anything about this, that there was a third person selling some other movies to the same company he had got into contact with and some other bullshit. That he talked to Barny, bnagentur's manager, and he immediately withdrew the questionable movies from the market. I was so outraged! I had sent Barny and BN agentur e-mails on the matter months before the movies actually disappeared from the market, and he didn't move a finger to settle things right! Besides, I made an index with the locations the movies were being sold, and it was quite long...   43   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 28 May 2009   mahacutra wrote: "What is the "significant number" of those you say they don't write on exmisa.ro because of the movies posted there? What is the "significant number" of those who instead write on exmisa (where only Deria writes regularly and also there are posted the movies we talk about) and of softpedia?" I think you know very well what contibutions had in the past users like cosci, ananda, Jedi Knight, kapalika, who actually encouraged so many people to speak freely about their past experiences. None of them are actually writing on exmisa.ro. And while the others had more reasons to do this, ananda was upset specifically because of the movies problem.   44   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 28 May 2009   nemesis I, personally, don't know anything about any girl signing an agreement or so, for her naked photos or videos to appear in any MISA movie. It is true that some girls knew what was going to happen with the shootings, and they didn't tell the others. But I repeat, I don't know anything about any real signature on any document. And I have no proof of underage girls appearing in those movies. reptilian As much as I appreciate Himawari for all the help provided, please, stop defending her.   45   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 28 May 2009   Reptilian, everybody who regularly reads the forums you mention, knows that the criticising activity is concentrating on exmisa.ro since its founding. But that is not important. Important is, that two exmisa users, that are not of your oppinion concerning the posting of the movies on the forums, are those that succeded to show to the international yoga federation the real face of MISA and its branches. Not jedi or other old exmisa critics essays posted on softpedia would convinced them to expell MISA from their organization. Since the founding of the exmisa forums we started be "heard" even by international personallities as Dr. Seppo Isotalo, for example. It isn't fair what you are doing here.   46   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   I have to go now or I will be in trouble with work, but I just wanted to say that I'm not aware that anyone is calling mahacutra a cold hearted bitch and I am certainly not doing that. I am struggling to understand how a situation could have arisen whereby a forum devoted to stopping MISA may in fact be (whether intended or not) be contributing to further abuse. It may be that the exmisa members are suffering from the same problems with boundaries as the Romanian cop and media. My wish here is not to accuse anyone, but to invite people to THINK about their actions. Specifically people need to ask themselves "if I do X thing will it a) further abuse / traumatise victims and b) will it discredit me as a witness by placing me in the category of abuser? It seems to me that the inclusion of certain material on the exmisa site does both of these things. Er, so that's it, just think and then think again and proceed with extreme care for yourselves and others. Bye for now.   47   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 28 May 2009   nemesis One more thing: I have a very strong sense of what a truthful attitude should look like. That is why I sent those movies to my sister-in-law, for her to show them to some MISA female colleagues of hers. I thought this would stir something inside them, it would make them act, warn other innocent MISA girls against the danger of trusting Bivolaru too much and ending up in adult movies sold in foreign countries. All my hopes went to pieces when my sister-in-law said she did show those movies to some shaktis in her town, and the reaction was... "Oooohhh, myyy Goodddd, hooowww niiiceee!!! Whhaaattt ann uppliiftiing eexpperienceee!"... I couldn't believe my ears... So, in the end, what is the use of trying, over and over again, to protect and care for those girls? I was quite disappointed...   48   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   sara responded on 28 May 2009   "This has got to be one of the most irrational things that have read recently (and trust me, I've read a lot)." I trust you've read a lot. The understanding you got from it sounds a bit worring, but that is your problem, not mine. "You are asking why it's wrong to refer to women and girls who are coerced into sex work as tramps and sluts?" I was asking why the problem seems to be that some people on the exmisa forum (certainly not all of them say, consider or regard theose women as such) use a strong language. I was asking WHY it is NOT a problem the fact that those girls practically deny themselves a chance of a real, stable, fulfilling life by staying there. I was asking why you seem more concerned with keeping up a made-up image instead of taking down the veil and looking at the face behind it, beautiful or ugly as it may be. And ultimately, I am asking you now: why do you appear to be more concerned with victimizing those girls and women even more than they actually are or were, instead of going after the real cause of this evil, Bivolaru?   49   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 28 May 2009   Reptilian, I am not blond, you know that. It isn't fair, to take advantage of the fact that I do not speak good English and because of this I can not answer as you deserve. I know very well why cosci doesn't write on none of the exmisa forums. It is not because of the movies we posted there. It would be better to ask him personally. I am in contact with him. Shall I remember the last joke regarding yogaesoteric where you and I played a secundary role? I also know why Kapalika doesn't write on none of the forums (not only on exmisa) and the reason isn't the posting of the movies. Jedi Knight also, doesn't left exmisa.ro because of the movies, but because of his brillant essay posted on the forum and afterwards published in the newspaper The Guardian and he made me responsible for it. The only user that left exmisa.ro because of the discussions regarding the posting of the movies is Ananda, as far as I know. Aren't you aware of how many users post on exmisa.ro, that you say Ananda is a "significant number "?   50   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 28 May 2009   reptilian My opinion regarding the victims: when you decide that you are a victim and that the organization and leader you trusted abused you in some way, you don't f***ing keep any contact with them anymore! You don't come out and ask somebody to protect your image and take the pornographic movie you appear in down from the site, and then say, in private: "hey, you know what? I'm still registered with MISA, I still appear as one of their students, I still receive the written courses at home, and this situation suits me just fine". For me, this is hypocrisy.   51   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   sara responded on 28 May 2009   "They are performing these acts because they have been manipulated, tricked and coerced, as you well know." They are performing these acts because they have allowed themselves to be manipulated, tricked and coerced, as you should well know, Nemesis. They always have the oportunity of getting out, as we all had and as some of us did, at one point or another. "The girls' actions reveal more about their abusers than they do about the girls themselves," The girls actions should (and they'd better do!) reveal just as much about themselves, or else they would never have a decent oportunity of seeing and accepting the crude reality of their situation. The worst part about victimising oneself is that one ends up by being deprived of the chance to learn from mistakes, leaving one prone to similar falls. I am not saying that they have not been conned into MISA's sex-business. They definitely have. At the same time, they can get out, but they don't. This is the line where the "victim" factor should stop. What you offer here is merely a cry of sympathy for the poor abused women, when they need to be offered a chance to get a different life out of MISA. And this life outside MISA will never happen until they aknowledge what has happened, no matter how difficult that may be. And this acknowledgement includes the fact that there may be some people using strong language, on exmisa or elsewere. Edited 28/05/2009 11:46:19 by sara   52   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 28 May 2009   Nemesis, you said: Then I got thinking about how the exmisa site would affect victims, especially regarding those who are thinking about leaving MISA. I sense that the site may in fact make it harder for victims to leave, as they will fear being judged and abused by people outside MISA as well as by those inside it. Granted, the site may be effective at warning some people about MISA but I know from experience (the poster called naz here being a typical example) that it can sometimes have the opposite effect." My darling, this is only theory, probabilities. I love action, not theory. You should have known that by now. The site is very effective (in your terms and in MISA's too - because of the "significant number" of students they lost), but, as you aren't involved in the work we do there, you can not know how much people it helped leaving MISA. Acording to the fact, that I am not an anonymous like all the others on the forums, it is me the victims you say I abuse are searching for. To me they came and still come on yahoo messenger if they are afraid of posting directly on the forum. It is me they come and thank for the information on the forum, although the forum is not only my work. Sure, I am convinced that not all the MISA students that read the forum are leaving MISA. Why would this be my problem? My goal and the one of the forum is to inform about things that MISA is hiding. Not to take people out of MISA by the hand.   53   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 28 May 2009   And by the way: 1. The major proof that the forum is effective is MISA's official attitude towards it and me personally. 2. No one of the international personalities or organisations I wrote about MISA and sent them among others links to the movies ( also to the swedish general prosecutor who investigated the MISA and Bivolaru case in 2005) had a problem with the fact that the movies are posted on the forum. So, relax.   54   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Butterfy responded on 28 May 2009   Mahacutra, you wrote: "Important is, that two exmisa users, that are not of your oppinion concerning the posting of the movies on the forums, are those that succeded to show to the international yoga federation the real face of MISA and its branches. " Could you be more specific? Who are those two exmisa users who succeded that? Just to avoid any misunderstanding.   55   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 28 May 2009   Butterfy, I can not move the entire exmisa.ro forum on METTA forum and surely I would do it much less for someone who, after I answered punctual all his questions, has the cheek to say that I gave half answers to half of his questions. If you allow to criticise a forum or a person, please do your homework first and inform yourself. The exmisa.ro forum with its WikiMISA-Encyclopedia is at your dissposal - information will set you free :))   56   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Butterfly responded on 28 May 2009   Mahacutra wrote: "1. The major proof that the forum is effective is MISA's official attitude towards it and me personally." You could look at it this way if you like it, but this is not necessarily a proof. Your arguments are starting to sound a bit like MISA when they are giving some "smashing evidence". "The freemasons are after us so this shows beyond any doubt that we are an authentic spiritual school." If someone does not agree with some of the things you are doing it does not directly imply that what you are doing is right. "2. No one of the international personalities or organisations I wrote about MISA and sent them among others links to the movies ( also to the swedish general prosecutor who investigated the MISA and Bivolaru case in 2005) had a problem with the fact that the movies are posted on the forum." And your point is? Have you also considered that: - they might have not read your letters - they did not look at the links - they did not realise that they were leading to adult content released without consent etc. etc. Mahacutra, your arguing is pathetic. I totally agree with Nemesis: you should THINK before you act.   57   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Butterfly responded on 28 May 2009   Mahacutra, I did not ask you to move the exmisa forum, and there is no way I am going to read it. I just asked you to provide those two users names and I expect a reply here, in order to avoid any misunderstanding that could be generated by your foggy answers.   58   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 28 May 2009   Butterfy, as long as you don't inform yourself regarding the forum or the person you allow to speak about, you will missunderstand a lot of things anyway. The names you are so eager to know won't change this. :)) And I won't waste my time with you no longer. I bet reptilian (wishing to protect so called victims )won't hesitate to give you not only the names but also specify the colour,taste and viscosity of the mother (or bottle) milk they sucked. :))   59   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 28 May 2009   Why do you want those names, Butterfly? If I look at your eagerness in finding them out, I already start having some insights on your identity... Or origin, so to say...   60   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Butterfly responded on 28 May 2009   Leena, I assume she meant that you and her got MISA out of the Federation. The argument was like: "the important thing is that two people who don't agree with Reptilian on the movies issue got misa out of the federation". Or in other words "I might be violating several laws, but I got misa out of the federation". Does this sound sensible? Sara, you are asking why we are not focusing on the person who is actually guilty for all this mess, namely Bivolaru. Well, Bivolaru is not in those movies. Unfortunately the persons who could testify against him have been abused both by the Romanian authorities and the exmisa forums, like Reptilian very well explained. Our point was that a different attitude would be needed to encourage those people to speak.   61   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   sara responded on 28 May 2009   Butterfly: You make some strong accusations here. I know several exmisa students and teachers who testified in the trials against Bivolaru. Against all of your odds, as it seems. Unintimidated by the authorities and certainly unintimidated by the exmisa forums. Several of them used to write on the forums and continue to read even today. Some stopped writing because they want to get on with their lives. I understand that. If you want their names, I would encourage you to refer to the Romanian authorities who are in their possession. Thus you'd be able to grasp an idea of why there are so many people fighting Bivolaru via the forums. If you wonder how was it possible for exmisa guys to testify, I can tell you to refer to Bivolaru & his gand, who are truly the responsible for turning those women into tramps and sluts. Reptilian well explained a biased side of a complex story, indeed. Bottom line, he served you a convenient story. Why, while we're at it, would you care to ask Reptilian to translate & explain the below? It's really interesting reading, casting a new light on motivations and actions: http://www.exmisa.ro/viewtopic.php?p=34909#p34909   62   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Butterfly responded on 28 May 2009   Thanks s(h)ara While we're at it, you might like to explain why it's legal to keep those movies on the site.   63   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 28 May 2009   Or, Butterfly, you might want to explain why an exmisa female forumist, who had the guts to appear on TV, just to reveal some uncomfortable truths about MISA and Bivolaru and how they use various associations and organizations to cover their traces, got beaten up - legs and fists - by a MISA student, enraged by her attitude...   64   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   "Or, Butterfly, you might want to explain why an exmisa female forumist, who had the guts to appear on TV, just to reveal some uncomfortable truths about MISA and Bivolaru and how they use various associations and organizations to cover their traces, got beaten up - legs and fists - by a MISA student, enraged by her attitude..." You see I'm puzzled about this too MISA are a bunch of organised criminals. Bivolaru's thugs have been known to beat people up, there are allegations that Mihai Stoian kidnapped people and threatened to kill them simply because they dared to stand up to MISA, and yet their strategy for dealing with mahacutra, who is arguably their most outspoken opponent, is to publish cartoons ridiculing her. It's all very difficult to understand and that's for sure. One this however is clear as day, and that is that mahacutra, leena, reptilian and myself are not all the same person.   65   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   mahacutra said "Acording to the fact, that I am not an anonymous like all the others on the forums, it is me the victims you say I abuse are searching for. To me they came and still come on yahoo messenger if they are afraid of posting directly on the forum. It is me they come and thank for the information on the forum,.." yes correct They contact the same person who has posted up explicit films and images of them on a public website. It is also you that any journalists will be in contact with is it not? Think people think! What is really going on here? :(   66   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   sara responded on 28 May 2009   Butterfly: Legal does not need be explained 'why'. Legal either is (legal) or else it becomes illegal. As far as I know, there is no middle way here and I lack the competence of discussing legal issues. A more interesting question would be however the same 'why' followed by 'there are some people who seem to appear everywhere lately asking for the movies to be removed, on grounds of child abuse, collateral damages, lawfulness, morality, so on and so forth.' Would you care to attempt an explanation?   67   RESPOND    EDIT     EMAIL sara  DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Butterfly responded on 28 May 2009   Yes, I could try... Could it be because it's illegal, abusive and offensive to keep them there? Might be helpful to have a look at those laws.   68   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   sara said "Butterfly: Legal does not need be explained 'why'. Legal either is (legal) or else it becomes illegal. As far as I know, there is no middle way here and I lack the competence of discussing legal issues. A more interesting question would be however the same 'why' followed by 'there are some people who seem to appear everywhere lately asking for the movies to be removed, on grounds of child abuse, collateral damages, lawfulness, morality, so on and so forth.' Would you care to attempt an explanation?" I'll explain it for you It's because posting up explicit films and images of people who were tricked and coerced into being filmed and who did not give their consent is WRONG as well as illegal As anyone with half a brain, or more correctly a conscience" understands Edited 28/05/2009 18:37:06 by nemesis   69   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   MARIA responded on 28 May 2009   I am realy confused by all of you.... You are answering one to other if it was or not right to put on site this movies to prove to the world what a pimp is Bivolaru and his trusted high officers-collaborators ( Mihai Stoian ,Cristian ,Monica , Lily ,Corina , Cristina ,Virginia ,etc). This names I mentioned are in the INNER CIRCLE as Bivolaru said..Are trusted persons that work in full trust and are partners in all Bivolaru illegal actions and jobs. They have also some very big profits and priviledges and for sure big authority on all schools and ashrams and they can move people send them out of ashram or punish them or expele tham , without neathe let them defende ...Ofcourse new girls after 2-3 years to grow up and go higher thay have to have sex with them...and make nude pics ...All this pics goes to Corina who makes porno sites with paid members for Bivolaru..All those partners..when young girls finish in the net of the secta they preper for Bivolaru because all they know his passion for minorene....TO BE CONTINUED   70   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 28 May 2009   Maria, I sent you an email these days, but no answer. I would like to talk to you in private, if possible. It is urgent. Thank you.   71   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   sara responded on 28 May 2009   Nemesis, anyone with half the conscience you brag about would go after Bivolaru, not after those fighting him. But I do fear that this is one of the things you'd only be able to read, not understand. Peace to you.   72   RESPOND    EDIT     EMAIL sara  DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 28 May 2009   nemesis With all due respect, posting those images and movies on the exmisa forums is not, IMO, more illegal than selling them abroad. I don't understand a thing: the victims are upset because the movies appeared on the forum, for everybody who accesses the forums to download them, but they are not upset because the movies were sold in foreign countries??? That Mihai Stoian is still telling lies about these movies? That Bivolaru invited the members of the IYF to watch those movies, in order to convince themselves of their profound spiritual value? That the girls who got involved into videochatting were told the chat channels cannot be accessed from Romania? That yogaesoteric - MISA's official web site, revealed the name of one of the pee protagonists - an Israeli girl, with no concern whatsoever for her identity being exposed? Why hasn't bnagentur reacted when Himawari - starring in one of the movies, and I - sent them e-mails warning them on the non-agreement of the protagonists? Why? Why did Barny only react when Mihai Stoian intervened? Is it because Stoian doesn't give a damn about these girls, only about the money?   73   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 28 May 2009   Besides, what Cecilia mostly did, is to take snapshots from the movies and compare them with several photos appearing on the Internet and presenting the same persons. Those girls are pee actresses, videochatters and / or dancers and / or yogaesoteric cover girls. So the non-agreement matter is off, in these cases. And I have one other question: how brainwashed must you be, to believe that the job you hold - judge, doctor, goes well with starring in such movies??? Still, I would like to talk with a real victim and hear her side of the story. Hoping she values truth more than fear or whatever.   74   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   leena Please allow me to clarify my position IF some of the films contain footage of girls aged 15 - 17 years old (as has been alleged as you must know) and IF those young girls signed release forms then the films would be legal to sell in Denmark only. Selling them in any other country would be a serious crime. From my research it appears that the DVDs are for sale only on a Danish site and the pay per view site with film clips is also a Danish site. One wonders why they are for sale only in Denmark? If such material does include footage of under age girls and is distributed outside Denmark then the distributors (in the case the owners of the exmisa sites) can expect to get into very serious trouble for distributing images of child abuse. I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that you may be subject to criminal charges not only in your own country but in any country that can access the material on your website. Do you know how other prisoners treat people who are in prison for distributing images of child abuse? You may wish to give this some serious thought.   75   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 28 May 2009   There are of course other issues regarding the fact (that nobody denies) that many of the women and girls in the films did not sign any kind of release form or give consent to be in porn films. Who but a criminal would distribute porn films that includes footage of girls who had not consented to be in porn? Think about it How do you know how upset these girls are or are not? If they are suffering from complex PTSD (very likely) they may typically fluctuate between being ecstatic / manic and being crushingly depressed. I have worked with victims of pimps before and they often love their abusers. Children who are exploited may think that their abusers are their friends, in fact this is quite common sadly. This is because of the grooming strategies of the perpetrators who know exactly how to manipulate vulnerable people. Have you heard of Stockholm Syndrome? maybe you should look it up?   76   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Butterfly responded on 28 May 2009   And one more question: how do you expect Bivolaru to understand that releasing adult footage without the women's consent is wrong, when exmisa is doing exactly the same thing, only on a much wider scale? I honestly do not understand why you are taking this issue so personally, like someone was trying to overrule you or deprive you of something that belongs to you, when in fact people are just trying to explain that there are certain laws that should be observed, and you cannot pretend that you are fighting for justice when justice does not seem to mean much to you.   77   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   MARIA responded on 29 May 2009   STOP ALL OF YOU TO FIGHT ONE AGAINST THE OTHER..THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THIS CRIMINAL BIVOLARU AND HIS SECTA MISA...THIS IS THE PROBLEM...AND WHO HAS INFO ABOUT ALL ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL ACTIONS OF HE AND HIS OFFICERS-INSTRUCTORS MUST SAY HERE AND EVERYWHERE SO PEOPLE KNOW THE TRUE.   78   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 29 May 2009   I think it's very sad that exmisa people and their supporters are in conflict and I would prefer it is we were all pulling in the same direction. However, if some exmisa people are posting explicit films and photos of vulnerable, exploited people, some possibly under age, on a public internet site then this has to be resolved before we can move forward. Nobody wants to see Bivolaru and his fellow criminals in jail more than I do, trust me, but the way to do this is for all people who have information to take to the police in their respective countries. To display sensitive evidence on a public website (not just photos, but contracts etc.) risks undermining a fair trial and therefore could give the criminals an opportunity to evade justice. Think about it!   79   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 29 May 2009   According to the Romanian indictment and the 1st person accounts of exmisa people that I have read, it will be very difficult to successfully prosecute Bivolau and his circle of criminal associates because they leave no paper trail and ensure that any legal contracts, whois entries and other incriminating documents relating to their various sex business entities are always put in the names of compliant victims. This situation effectively means that the only way to prosecute the criminals will be that the victims come forward to give evidence against the criminals. Some of these victims will be terrified of being prosecuted themselves once they realise what has happened and may be too afraid to go to the police. The fact that important contracts and data are posted on the exmisa site, where victims are not treated with respect and understanding, will only increase their anxieties. Anyone who genuinely wants to see Bivolaru in jail should be concentrating 100pc on supporting victims, helping them to access proper supportive services such as PTSD counselling and therapy, proper therapy of course by qualified and insured people, (not some mickey mouse tantric counselling), and supporting them in going to the police.   80   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 29 May 2009   Nemesis, I thing it is very good that exmisa users are sometimes having different oppinions. The exmisa.ro forum is not the forum of a new sect, where everybody says like mahacutra or reptilian says,for example. The exmisa.ro forum is not a community, nor an anti MISA organization. It is a place where information (pro and cons) about MISA is gathered togheter and where people from all over the world can freely talk on this matter. From some points of vue they are all pulling in the same direction. But there are also things that are seeing different. Some prefer only to write their essays, some help translating or getting new information and some are involving in activities beyond the border of the forum.   81   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 29 May 2009   Nemesis, First of all, can you please explain to me what do you mean by "the suporters" of the exmisa people? if some exMISA users aren't doing what you expect them to do, or are doing illegal things in your oppinion, this won't affect you or your supposed work, because you have nothing to do with that forum. You even haven't wrote a line there. So what is your problem? Why do you feel responsible, why do you have to resolve the alleged problems or issues of a forum where you aren't involved? Those who posted the movies are responsible for what they done. The only sensitive evidences there are on the forums are MISA's articles, books and movies. I don't understand how could such thing undermine a trial (they must have that evidences in trial too)or give the criminals the posibility to evade justice.   82   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 29 May 2009   Nemesis, You said: "The fact that important contracts and data are posted on the exmisa site, where victims are not treated with respect and understanding, will only increase their anxieties. " Please specify which "important contracts" do you mean? Did I miss something? And which victims aren't treated with respect and understanding on exmisa.ro. Do you mean the "victim" Himawari who's story was explained by Deria allready? Which victim was treated bad by the entire forum, so you can allow to accuse an entire forum. Do you realise what severe accusations you are bringing here? Do you thing before posting or you post via a medium? :P Honestly, I can not understand you anymore.   83   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 29 May 2009   nemesis You got it all wrong. I have no proof that any of the girls appearing in the movies was underage at that time. So I can't speak about any "child abuse". Sadly, it's no use talking to the police here. I believe the movies have been in their possession long before they appeared on the Internet. Why do I say this? Because there are some older newspaper articles speaking about the movies before the exmisa forums even appeared. They date back to the "porno female judge" scandal. As for the selling locations of those DVDs, I can show you my complete index. I presume some of the locations are out of date now. I am tired of all this matter, with the movies, which has been discussed over and over again. As for the contracts - I believe you mean the Extaz company contracts - you can find them on a Romanian site displaying school projects for download. For free. It's not us who have posted them there. The documents have been there for quite a while. The movies on the exmisa.ro site were bought - original DVSs - from Denmark. I come back to one of my questions: where are the victims?   84   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 29 May 2009   Let's imagine the following scenario: MISA owns an "artistic" studio, called Sophrozin. This studio is led by Carmen Enache, stage name Bella Maestrina. Besides taking care of all of MISA's "artistical" activities, this studio also produces adult movies. These movies are taken by Mihai Stoian and sold to bnagentur.dk, led by Barny. We won't talk about the agreement or non-agreement of the protagonists, for the moment. Barny buys the movies and lists them among the other productions sold by bnagentur. I am a customer who comes across these movies and decides to buy them. I have no idea whatsoever who the actresses are and where they come from, how old they are and so on. I am watching a movie in which several girls play sexual games together and soak them in urine. Then I decide to share these movies with some of my friends and upload them on an Internet site. (Barny admitted it was his fault he didn't explain the copyright matter from the beginning). What is my fault, in this case?   85   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 29 May 2009   nemesis wrote: "From my research it appears that the DVDs are for sale only on a Danish site and the pay per view site with film clips is also a Danish site." Actually some of the movies in question were publicly presented at the Barcelona International Erotic Film Festival(FICEB) in 2003 and even they won some awards there. So at list a part of the films was distributed in another western country(Spain) besides Denmark.   86   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 29 May 2009   sara: "Could it be also because the Romanian police has been investigating Bivolaru and his gang (at least officially) for 5 years now and the result of it is plainly... a bitter nothing?" Actually is not the police investigation the one which is advancing at a snail's pace, but the trials in court. But the prosecutor's file appears to me, indeed, to be pretty thin.   87   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 29 May 2009   mahacutra: "Important is, that two exmisa users, that are not of your oppinion concerning the posting of the movies on the forums, are those that succeded to show to the international yoga federation the real face of MISA and its branches. " Funny, I thought that a third one had a major role in provoking a crucial reaction(at that time) from mr. Bivolaru, which was the last drop before the jar overflowed and the leaders of the IYF finally decided to expel MISA from its ranks.:)Even funnier, that third person is someone who asked you to erase at list the images of the females that left MISA(if not all images). ;) But I was mean, wasn't I? ;)   88   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 29 May 2009   mahacutra wrote: "I bet reptilian (wishing to protect so called victims )won't hesitate to give you not only the names but also specify the colour,taste and viscosity of the mother (or bottle) milk they sucked. :))" Really? This is how you know me? :)   89   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 29 May 2009   But enough with the bickerings between us, those who criticise MISA and his mentor. Let's talk about something interesting that concernes again yogaesoteric, the MISA's official site. If you go on the site part(the english version) entitled "About us" and then to "Who are we" you can see on that particular page a strange affirmation: "MISA is member of International Yoga Federation and the European Yoga Alliance and Mr. Gregorian Bivolaru is member of the European Yoga Council." Actually the IYF, the European Yoga Alliance and the European Yoga Council kicked out MISA and its other branches(NATHA, TARA etc.) and mr. Bivolaru from their ranks in the spring of 2008(in april or may, but I'm not very sure about the month - the Gardianul newspaper published Shri Ajita's decision of expulsion at that time so it should not be very difficult to find that article on the internet). Strangely, yogaesoteric's administrators forgot to update precisely the content of this quite important page, and the same thing is true for the similar page written in romanian. ;)   90   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 29 May 2009   The situation is even funnier because if you use a google search you can quite easily find on yogaesoteric an article entitled "Significant issues related to the dirty games played behind the scenes by The International Yoga Federation and not only... As I have personally witnessed in the past 4 years" written by "Yoga Teacher Mihai Stoian". In that article, dated june 12 2008, mr. Stoian declares that "International Yoga Federation is not even legally setup as an international organization having this official title as international" and praises instead the "Atman International Federation of Yoga and Meditation which is legally setup and legally fulfills all conditions to have this title". I think it's needless to say that he wrote those things after MISA and NATHA were kicked out from the IYF. ;) And the "Atman International Federation of Yoga and Meditation", despite its quite pompous title, includes mainly the different MISA's branches that exists worldwide.   91   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 29 May 2009   Also, in the same article mr. Stoian declares that "Among them, Sri Ajita has a very high rank in masonry and this is the reason why everybody listens to him. From a simple member, Sri Ajita mysteriously became overnight the president of the European Yoga Council. Swami Maitreyananda also revealed to me the fact that he was not only attacked in the press and in court, but all his students started to get threatening letters that they would be dragged to court if they continued attending his yoga class. What is extremely serious is his yoga school is in connection with international terrorist organizations having destabilization tendencies etc. Of course they refer to MISA Yoga School that is in this way deliberately presented as an organization with a very bad reputation." You can see here again the classical MISA tactic of labelling its critics as being either freemasons either agents of the romanian secret services(and sometimes reptilians, but that is something that was rarely used and mainly on forums by some pro-MISA users). Funny, when Shri Ajita supported MISA was a good guy, but when he changed his mind he suddenly shapeshifted into an evil freemason. :D   92   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 29 May 2009   Anyway, on several forums(which are obviously frequented by the people who write on yogaesoteric, because sometimes on that site mysteriously appears articles on themes that were previously discussed on the forums, and even some articles were modified after some pranks initiated by some forum users with a greater sense of humour), was posted repetedly to yogaesoteric's team the following question: "why don't you update MISA's presentation page and you continue to present your school as a member of IYF when this situation is not true anymore?". Until now there was no answer and to this day MISA is described on the "who we are" page as a member of IYF.   93   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 29 May 2009   I have to specify the fact that personally I have a neutral attitude towards the freemasonry and I don't know really very much about that organization(with the exception of the sometimes very weird conspiracy theories concerning it that are systematically propagated by MISA, including on yogaesoteric). The expression "evil freemason" that I utilised earlier was just an irony that pointed at the anti-masonry obsession so typical(and sometimes useful ;) )to so many of MISA's students and instructors.   94   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   sara responded on 29 May 2009   Reptilian: "Actually is not the police investigation the one which is advancing at a snail's pace, but the trials in court. But the prosecutor's file appears to me, indeed, to be pretty thin." And how would you expect the trials to go on with what you admit to be a thin prosecutor's file? I did not say that the police investigation went on at a snail's pace. It went quite fast, too fast as it turns out and this proved in the end to be a judicial fault and Bivolaru was released from prison. What I meant is that they had at least 5 years (since 2004) to properly investigate Bivolaru and to clearly present their findings to the competent authorities.   95   RESPOND    EDIT     EMAIL sara  DANGEROUS MAD MAN   spook responded on 29 May 2009   MARIA, Unfortunately it looks like your thread was flooded. You were saying some very interesting things. I understand that this Corina is running an erotic videochat site for GB. Could you perhaps give some more details? How do they get the girls to work for them, how are they paid, and of course it would be mostly interesting to know how GB gets the money. Do you know approximately how much they make? I think you also said something about girls being sent to Italy. This is of course very interesting too. Do they work as strippers there? Is this still going on? Are they also recruited from the yoga course, saying that G is poor, his fridge is almost empty and the future of spirituality on this planet depends on them?   96   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 30 May 2009   There is something strange happening on the "MISA MESS" thread. I have posted something there but I don't see my message appearing. So I will try again here. Interestingly, the largest selling newspaper in Denmark(according to wikipedia, at least), Jyllands Posten(www.jp.dk) posted two quite interesting articles about Natha and Mihai Stoian on 23 may this year. In one of them(in the online edition) there was posted a link towards "Making of Magic Passage"(which is posted on video.google), the promotional videoclip in which Mihai Stoian explains the motives for his acting in a such an explicit erotic movie. Apparently, the danish journalists seems to have had no problems "advertising such stuff". If you don't believe it, enter on www.jp.dk and make a search(the site has a search engine on its front page) using the keywords "Mihai Stoian". The first result of the search should be the article with the links(by the way, the danes also posted a link to exmisa.ro), and at the and of the article is a link to the second article under the words "relaterede artikler". By the way, what would be the best translation in english for the danish expression "sex-sekt" used in the title of the second article? ;)   97   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 30 May 2009   Well, it seems that the "MISA MESS" thread definitely isn't working anymore(maybe there's a limit to the amount of information that could be technically posted on one thread? - I've noticed that the other old thread stoped being used at about 200+ posts also). So I will respond here to something that Andrew wrote there. Andrew wrote: "so much hate from what appears to be one individuals twisted mind". Well, this affirmation sounds strangely similar to the ones posted by observer and Angelica and other persons could easily turn your argument on its head affirming that you may be the same person as observer and Angelica. ;) No offence.   98   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 30 May 2009   reptilian, You said: "Funny, I thought that a third one had a major role in provoking a crucial reaction(at that time) from mr. Bivolaru, which was the last drop before the jar overflowed and the leaders of the IYF finally decided to expel MISA from its ranks.:)Even funnier, that third person is someone who asked you to erase at list the images of the females that left MISA(if not all images). ;) But I was mean, wasn't I? ;)" You know if you are mean or not. I can only see that you are not well informed. No wonder, if you weren't directly involved and didn't directly speak with Shri Ajita, who expelled them from the federation. But you still can go on making extraordinary revelations around here, tousand years after the work was done while you were sitting behind the monitor writing your essays. Those two I meant, know very well at which moment fell Ajita's decision and why.   99   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 30 May 2009   Reptilian, mahacutra wrote: "I bet reptilian (wishing to protect so called victims )won't hesitate to give you not only the names but also specify the colour,taste and viscosity of the mother (or bottle) milk they sucked. :))" and you replied: "Really? This is how you know me? :)" In the previous post to the one in which you wrote the above sentence you've just done it once again. :)) Here you have your own words: "Funny, I thought that a third one had a major role in provoking a crucial reaction(at that time) from mr. Bivolaru, which was the last drop before the jar overflowed and the leaders of the IYF finally decided to expel MISA from its ranks.:)Even funnier, that third person is someone who asked you to erase at list the images of the females that left MISA(if not all images). ;)"   100   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   spook responded on 31 May 2009   I have read the debate on this thread, and the argument about the movies on the exmisa sites does not make too much sense to me. I suppose that any person who would be downloading movies would be aware that their IP would be with the exmisa admin. I wonder who would be willing to pay that price for the benefit of watching something that has been released in a questionable way? I suppose the misa persons (or anyone else) could regard that as a trap and stay away from it.   101   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 31 May 2009   In today's number of Jyllands Posten(www.jp.dk) there's a new article concerning NATHA and some erotic movie(a new one that I didn't heard of until now) with the title "Sex-film optaget i lokaler støttet af kommunen".   102   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   reptilian responded on 31 May 2009   "Sex-film optaget i lokaler støttet af kommunen" is the title of the article on jp.dk, not the title of the movie. I'm sorry if my previous message was a little bit confusing.   103   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 31 May 2009   Thank you reptilian for your, as usual, informative and erudite posts. I would like to suggest that these discussions are moved to the forums at the Rick Ross Cult Education website They are moderated by people who have an extensive knowledge of cults and are easier to post on I cannot post a link but you can find the forums by searching for "rick ross" cults and forum see you there :)   104   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   AZOTH responded on 31 May 2009   movies: I had the doubtable "luck" to see most of them and I can tell you only one thing: I could not believe my eyes at first; because the Stoian google movie was ridiculous and embarassing, BUT in the other movies (the so called "pee" stuff) I saw some girls who were in the same "yoga class" as myself and a lot of familiar faces (none of them underage - to my knowledge). Without that I would not have believed it! "sluts" or "victims": the problem is, once a victim, you try to recruit other girls and brainwash them to "open up" and to become a "tantraguru devotee", means to become a slut-victim. so: victim + perpetrator = two sides of the same coin. NO MERCY! They exactly know what they are doing.   105   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 31 May 2009   The coercive methods used by cults can affect all kinds of people. The information below is taken from the Cult Information Centre (you'll have to google for it as they don't allow links here) Mind Control techniques include: Hypnosis Inducing a state of high suggestibility by hypnosis, often thinly disguised as relaxation or meditation. Peer Group Pressure Suppressing doubt and resistance to new ideas by exploiting the need to belong. Love Bombing Creating a sense of family and belonging through hugging, kissing, touching and flattery. Rejection of Old Values Accelerating acceptance of new life style by constantly denouncing former values and beliefs. Confusing Doctrine Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine. Metacommunication Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures. Removal of Privacy Achieving loss of ability to evaluate logically by preventing private contemplation. Time Sense Deprivation Destroying ability to evaluate information, personal reactions, and body functions in relation to passage of time by removing all clocks and watches. Disinhibition Encouraging child-like obedience by orchestrating child-like behaviour. continued ....   106   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 31 May 2009   Uncompromising Rules Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications. Verbal Abuse Desensitizing through bombardment with foul and abusive language. Sleep Deprivation and Fatigue Creating disorientation and vulnerability by prolonging mental an physical activity and withholding adequate rest and sleep. Dress Codes Removing individuality by demanding conformity to the group dress code. Chanting and Singing Eliminating non-cult ideas through group repetition of mind-narrowing chants or phrases. Confession Encouraging the destruction of individual ego through confession of personal weaknesses and innermost feelings of doubt. Financial Commitment Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets. Finger Pointing Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world and other cults.   107   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 31 May 2009   Flaunting Hierarchy Promoting acceptance of cult authority by promising advancement, power and salvation. Isolation Inducing loss of reality by physical separation from family, friends, society and rational references. Controlled Approval Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions. Change of Diet Creating disorientation and increased susceptibility to emotional arousal by depriving the nervous system of necessary nutrients through the use of special diets and/or fasting. Games Inducing dependence on the group by introducing games with obscure rules. No Questions Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions. Guilt Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles. Fear Maintaining loyalty and obedience to the group by threatening soul, life or limb for the slightest 'negative' thought, word or deed. Replacement of Relationships Destroying pre-cult families by arranging cult marriages and 'families'. sound familiar?   108   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 31 May 2009   AZOTH said ""sluts" or "victims": the problem is, once a victim, you try to recruit other girls and brainwash them to "open up" and to become a "tantraguru devotee", means to become a slut-victim. so: victim + perpetrator = two sides of the same coin. NO MERCY! They exactly know what they are doing." Granted there will be some cases where it is difficult to discern who is a victim and who is a perpetrator, or more likely that some individuals may fall into both categories. However there is a lot of highly regarded psychological research that has shown that, in certain unusual circumstances, many ordinary, intelligent people will do Very Bad Things to other people. One example is the Stanford prison experiment, another is the Milgram experiment. Google or wikipedia will produce results that anyone who judges the victims of this cult would do well to read. It is never, ever justified to call an abuse victim a slut, even if she has been coerced and controlled to the extent that she genuinely believes that she is helping her potential victims as she recruits new fodder for the MISA slavery machine   109   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 31 May 2009   Incidentally, just for the record, I have been on the receiving end of attempts to recruit me by MISA "shaktis" and I do not think that the women who tried to recruit me were sluts or even bad people. Misguided people who are under the spell of an impossible dream, yes. They wanted the best for me, they thought hat by introducing me to their particular brand of tantra that they would be accelerating mine and their spiritual evolution. Also, just for the record, these women were intelligent, articulate, witty and quite good fun apart from their tiresome obsession with the Tara Yoga Centre.   110   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 01 June 2009   nemesis Until Mr. Karl-Erik Nylund, who is highly appraised and valued at MISA, changes his point of view as to MISA NOT being a sect, there's not much we can do about it. I warned him against being used by MISA as a curtain, but there was no reply. PS. Don't give MISA girls that much credit. Just look at Tasty Crisa (Cristina Stroe), Big Boobs Joanna (Ioana I don't know what), and the MISA girls urinating on the scene of the International Erotic Movie   111   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 02 June 2009   leena If you don't believe that the girls in the various MISA porn films and sex businesses are being abused and exploited, why are you bothering to warn people about MISA? It is true of course, that people who get involved with cults have a reason to do so. Some people may have been sexually or otherwise abused as children, some may have psycho-sexual problems, some may be depressed or in a time of crisis due to debt, bereavement, illness, relationship problems or for some other reason. I also wonder how many people who are attracted to this kind of cult had mothers who were depressed or ill when they were infants? I would expect that a significant percentage would fall into this category. Whatever each person's reasons or vulnerabilities, they do not deserve the kind of abuse that they get in MISA yoga camps Edited 02/06/2009 08:32:48 by nemesis   112   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 02 June 2009   I don't know how it is in your country, but here in the UK there are many reality TV shows in which ordinary women who work in offices or other mundane jobs are encouraged to express themselves and increase their confidence in their bodies by learning and performing burlesque, or by prancing around in bikinis. We have a whole load of TV shows with this format, and frankly, whatever you think of these shows, women should be able to explore their inner burlesque star without ending up enslaved by a cult and performing in "watersports" porn films. Obviously The whole problem with MISA and the Tara Yoga Centre is that they promise spiritual evolution and sexual freedom but deliver exploitation, degredation and enslavement.   113   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 02 June 2009   leena I do not know Cristina Stroe or Joanna personally. I do not know the extent to which either of them have been involved in recruiting new meat for the MISA porn machine, although the suggestions from former MISA members on the esmisa site is that Ms Stroe is an enthusiastic recruiter and that she is making significant revenue from porn. My emotional response, when I look at the explicit photos of these women, is that it breaks my heart that young women have been so corrupted that they feel that their spiritual evolution is dependent on appearing in porn sites. People like Bivolaru do not have friends, they do not have lovers, they have only victims. If you search google videos for cult recovery you will find some very helpful material. If you can translate some of this into Romanian language think it might be very helpful for Romanian exmisa people as it seems to me that there is not enough supportive material available in Romanian language and there is an urgent need for it.   114   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   AZOTH responded on 02 June 2009   Mr. Stoian said (Natha homepage): "A simple review of NATHAs courses will reveal that we offer three different courses involving CHILDREN: Prenatal Yoga, Yoga for mother and child, and Yoga for children. I personally supervised the formation of the curriculum of all these courses, which, for those with common sense, is an indication of my attitude towards this issue." THIS IS REALLY SHOCKING !!!!! So Mr. porn star Paul ****** and major provider for video-chat, strip bars and porn productions and his malicious wife, who is one of the main organisers of infection initiation trips to Sweden, France or elsewhere, are giving also YOGA CLASSES FOR CHILDREN?!?!?! That was your last mistake, Mr. ******. Have fun with your prison inmates!!!   115   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 02 June 2009   nemesis 1. Because I do make a difference, between the real victims and some other... actresses. You, on the other hand, seem to include everybody in the same pot. Which is wrong, but it's your option. 2. Bivolaru was married, as far as I know, though nobody admits it. And he really was in love with one MISA girl, the only one who had the guts to climb up the fence around the harem ashram, where Bivolaru was f***ing the disciples waiting for him, and shout the truth through the windows. Meaning swearing. :D 3. I can look for information in Romanian, about the cult recovery.   116   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 02 June 2009   AZOTH I missed that fragment. Irony, isn't it? 1. Within MISA, children are perceived as a hindrance to one's spiritual evolution. A woman giving birth is seen as losing her state of shakti. 2. Bivolaru advised some women who got pregnant to have an abortion. Through yoga techniques. 3. I was told of two MISA girls who were so... uneducated, that they mistook their pregnancies for... sublimation of the period and... stomach gases. 4. Stoian teaches yoga for mothers and children.   117   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 03 June 2009   leena You said "Because I do make a difference, between the real victims and some other... actresses. You, on the other hand, seem to include everybody in the same pot. Which is wrong, but it's your option." I must confess I don't understand. You feel that the "real victims" are not porn actresses? Surely the coercion of women and girls to engage in sex work, whether it's erotic dancing, erotic massage or pornography, is one of the most exploitative and dehumanising aspects of MISA's many faceted slavery machine. I would not say for a moment that the men and women working crazy hours doing "karma yoga" in building sites and factories on poor food rations are not victims, of course they are. However it seems to me that the exploitation of women and girls via sex work is even more terrible. To suggest that the sex workers are not victims because they were coerced or tricked into sex work seems irrational and hard hearted to me. Perhaps I have misunderstood you? Can you explain more about why you feel that the "actresses" are less of a victim than other MISA members? I am genuinely interested in your perceptions re this   118   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 03 June 2009   leena Plenty of people get married without feeling love for their spouse. It is sadly very common. I doubt very much that Bivolaru was "in love" with anyone. He just wanted the one (probably the only one) that he couldn't have. A situation that is very common for some people. As common as muck in fact. I am delighted that you have many Romanian resources for cult recovery. Can you please post some of them here so that people can benefit from them? I'm sure that people would appreciate it. Alternatively you could have a thread on your own forum with these resources on, if you do not already have one.   119   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 03 June 2009   AZOTH Your post about children and pregnant women is interesting and, of course, concerning I am confused about something though On one of Bivolaru's porn sites (I don't want to advertise it by saying the name here but I'm sure you know which one I mean) features many photo sets and video clips of lactating women. While lactation can be induced via hormones in women who have never been pregnant, it is usual for lactation only to occur in pregnant women and mothers. I suppose that, when saw the adverts for pregnant women's yoga and mother and baby yoga classes I felt concerned that these had been created with the intention of exploiting pregnant women and new mothers in porn sites. I'm just a bit confused about how Bivolaru's proclivity for lactating women fits with the anecdotal reports of women being pressurised to terminate their pregnancies.   120   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   spook responded on 03 June 2009   I hope this clarifies some things. While many MISA women are doing karma yoga on video-chat in and in night-clubs, there are perhaps just as many who are making small fortunes for themselves, slowly forgetting why they started that in the first place (for their "spiritual evolution", to have time to dedicate to their studies or to the yoga practice etc.) It is sad, but there are quite a few educated women among them: doctors, IT-experts, teachers. It's true perhaps that as doctors they would be earning a lot less in Romania, but I thought it was not all about money in the end. Also among the "actresses" there were some of them who knew what was happening and some who genuinely thought they were in some top secret "spiritual contest". I would say each case is individual and you definitely cannot put all in one pot. Regarding lactating women, I know some who can do that without being pregnant or mothers. And to Leena's list I would add: 5. The yoga teachers are making porno movies at the premises where yoga for children is taught   121   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 03 June 2009   spook Thank you for that clarification I am still confused about a few things If Bivolaru is the pimp that he appears to be (and I have no doubt that he is a pimp) then how do the women who make a small fortune for themselves get to keep the money they make? Is it because they leave MISA and thus fall back on the way they know that can make money fast? I'm asking because of all the anecdotal accounts of women leaving Japan and having all their money and possessions taken from them by MISA pimps as they take a taxi to the airport. Is it because these women become pimps themselves and are allowed to share in the revenue by recruiting fresh meat? How does it work? Also I understand that "Tasty Crisa" AKA Ms Stroe, is a maths teacher and that this does not pay well in Romania. I'm just curious as to whether she teaches adults or children as the combined careers of porn star (possibly pimp) and teacher do not go well together at all, at least not in my opinion. What you say about each case being individual sounds right to me as this is a highly complex situation. It seems to me that it should be for the courts to ultimately decide who is a victim and who is not. Edited 03/06/2009 09:30:49 by nemesis   122   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 03 June 2009   nemesis 1. Tasty Crisa (or Crissa, whatever) runs her own pornographic site. So does Joanna. And other MISA girls, who, by the way, look quite overweight to me, for such a job. Where is the coercion here? I repeat, their own pornographic sites. I don't see them as victims. Simona Popescu, running the "Dacica" ashram, MISA's branch in Timisoara, is not a victim, in my opinion. The judge and the lawyer appearing in one of the movies are not victims. I don't believe they were tricked into doing what they were doing. On the other hand, some other girls (no names, this time) can be considered victims, because they were lured into this. I hope you see the difference now. 2. We did have a topic on MISA as a sect on our forums. The literature was either in Romanian, Google search, or translated from English. I didn't say there are many articles on cults in Romanian, I just said I could look for some (now it struck me I really know some, I guess we had them on our forums), as I have done before.   123   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 03 June 2009   3. Bivolaru was in love with that girl, he used to carry her picture with him and show it to his male students, as the image of a perfect shakti. In a fit of jealousy, he snapped her with a wet towel. Jealousy, yes, because the girl had found herself another lover. :) 4. It is a very complicated situation, indeed. I don't think Crisa is still a teacher, after all this. 5. And yes, some girls are recruiters. What do you know about the "little house" in Costinesti? Also called "the shakti villa"?   124   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 03 June 2009   How come my first reply appears under the name of nemesis? Very strange...   125   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   leena responded on 03 June 2009   thanks for your clarification leena I think that anyone can post as anyone here so that your password and email work only for the post concerned, not for all your posts I am posting in your name to see if I can do it too nemesis obviously, if this is the case, then anyone can post here pretending to be anyone   126   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 03 June 2009   leena, in the post where you are mistakenly posting as me you said "1. Tasty Crisa (or Crissa, whatever) runs her own pornographic site. So does Joanna. And other MISA girls, who, by the way, look quite overweight to me, for such a job. Where is the coercion here? I repeat, their own pornographic sites. I don't see them as victims." They appear to have their own porn sites, but, as it says in the indictment, Bivolaru is an expert at evading the law by putting all incriminating documents in the names of his victims. How do you know that these girls really own their own porn sites? Having studied Bivolaru's various porn sites, they all seem to have a similar "look" which would suggest to me that one person is behind them all. I researched customer reviews on adult porn review sites and consumers had complained that the person behind these sites was not good at giving regular updates, video quality was poor, and a range of other complaints. Surely if consumers of this material notice that the sites all look the same that there might be some truth in that? You could be right but I'm still not sure how you can be so certain given Bivo's slippery ability to evade culpability and thus justice. Also I do not understand why you feel the need to comment on the weight of these girls. It just looks to me like you are having a go at them. Surely a girl's weight has no relevance to the very serious issues being discussed here? Edited 03/06/2009 14:14:29 by nemesis Edited 03/06/2009 17:14:01 by nemesis   127   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   spook responded on 03 June 2009   The women who make money for themselves do not work on MISA sites. There are plenty of such enterprises, and they can even work for several at the same time, and they do not make any donations. This I know for sure. The women who were followed and ripped off at the airport had a contract with EXTAZ and had sworn to give all they earn to Bivolaru. There seem to be some others who simply sign agreements with night-clubs on their own, although this might a lie to excuse GB. This I don't know for sure. MARIA I hope that you are well. It only struck me much later. When you wrote:"Bivolaru and his trusted high officers-collaborators ( Mihai Stoian ,Cristian ,Monica , Lily ,Corina , Cristina ,Virginia ,etc)" did you by any chance mean Cristian Boerescu, the guy who was until recently in charge of the TYC? I hear he went back to Ro and a woman from the UK replaced him, but still it would be very interesting to know more about the guy who was designated to take over from Raphael.   128   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 03 June 2009   nemesis The girls' weight is important, in this context, because it is Bivolaru who prefers chubby girls, feeds them with chocolate cakes and bananas with Finetti chocolate cream and other junk food, at the same time publishing a brochure on the healthy foods. Ironic, isn't it? I saw the "Big Boobs Summer Break" movie. I felt sadness. There is one girl who seemed so beautiful to me, why on Earth did she have to gain weight just to please Bivolaru and do girl-to-girl sessions to evolve spiritually and meet God?   129   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 03 June 2009   nemesis Excerpt from Crisa's site: "I put this site together myself so its my pride and joy." :D   130   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 04 June 2009   Leena You said "Excerpt from Crisa's site: "I put this site together myself so its my pride and joy."" Aw bless! You are soooo sweet! I heard that many people love you and I'm not surprised ;) The thing is this, let me explain Lots of the things that you read on porn sites are not actually true. ;)   131   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   AZOTH responded on 04 June 2009   Really Strange!!! Karl-Erik Nylund was betrayed once, BUT NOW everything is public...the movies, their actors, the whole concept of misa "school", even the letter from Mr. Draconian Reptilolaru to the IYF, where he confesses all the pee porn stuff and even the "infection initiations". How comes that Mr. Nylund does not react and that his name and he himself is abused for this "no sect" trick??? There are IMO only few possibilities: 1) They threatened him (or his family) with something 2) They used their shaktis to convince him of their pure arguments 3) He is already retired or in an age which is incompatible with his function 4) He never got Leenas letters and does not read newspapers 5) He gets money from the "school" 6) He is also "initiated" How can it be that this guy gives his OK to YOGA FOR CHILDREN classes when he knows all this obvious, incredible and demonic things???   132   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 04 June 2009   AZOTH He did get my letters. He confirmed that. And my letters included a 10-page report on everything that we had found out about MISA until that time. He promised to read my report. Then he said that, until he checks all the information there out, he cannot change his mind. I haven't heard from him since. And this was a long time ago. nemesis Whether it's true or not, it's there, on Crisa's site. The same with the movies, the first impact is porn, not innocent girls tricked into doing what they are doing. I repeat my question, what do you know about the shakti villa in Costinesti?   133   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 05 June 2009   You said nemesis "Whether it's true or not, it's there, on Crisa's site." Look leena Most porn sites are owned and run by men These men understand that what consumers want from porn sites like Crisa's site is the fantasy of an intimate sexual relationship with the porn star. Of course it says "this site is my pride and joy" If it said "this site was created by my guru and all the revenue goes to him" (if that is the case, I'm not saying it is) it would not have the same frisson to it would it? you also wrote "The same with the movies, the first impact is porn, not innocent girls tricked into doing what they are doing." Can it not be both? Yes it is porn but the girls are tricked, as we all know. If you are saying that they cannot be innocent as they are in porn, this is the very same argument used by Mihai Stoian to justify MISA's sex business. You also said "I repeat my question, what do you know about the shakti villa in Costinesti?" Do you mean the "harem" location where Pimpolaru fattened up the latest fresh meat destined for the initiations? At least back when he was still in Romania. Edited 05/06/2009 18:54:34 by nemesis   134   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   AZOTH responded on 08 June 2009   ad Mr. Karl-Erik NYLUND: He is retired since 2009-01-31 !!! Further it seems that: 1) He never got Mr.B.s "confession letter" to the IYF !!! 2) He did not know that MISA was kicked out of the IYF !!! 3) He also did not get Mr.Stoians "chat" about "tantric initiations & movies" and the thereby transferred diseases and his "psychological" explanations for the diseases!!! His successors should be informed IMMEDIATELY, and his former church superiors should be informed IMMEDIATELY, too. "Maria Magdalena församling", the organsiation Mr. Nylund is representing, would NEVER GIVE ITS OK FOR "YOGA" and especially NEVER GIVE ITS OK FOR "YOGA FOR CHILDREN" under henceforward known circumstances !!!   135   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 08 June 2009   nemesis I'm tired. Honestly. Each answer, instead of settling a matter, gives rise to more questions. As for the movies, WE know the story behind them. The average customer doesn't. And doesn't even care. That's why I said what I said. Besides, the average customer doesn't make the difference between the purpose of "Magic Passage", "Ecstasy Water" and the purpose of the others. Yes, that's the villa, and fattening up is not the only thing which used to go on. AZOTH What keeps you from writing them an e-mail? Or several?   136   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Sara responded on 09 June 2009   AZOTH, Mr. Nylund was informed by Leena in 2008 (see her own post above). He said he was no longer looking into this matter... As far as I know (Leena, please correct me if I'm wrong) Mr. Nylund gave his opinion in his name, not in the name of any organisation. Nevertheless, do you happen to have any contact names from or a link to the organisation you mention? Thanks.   137   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Sara responded on 09 June 2009   Nemesis, Bivolaru has explained many times that in some exceptional cases, during 'intense erotic experiences'- MISA way, of course a woman can spontaneously lactate, even if she is not pregnant. It was a high goal for all the shaktis, as lactation would have been a confirmation of their 'spiritual' evolution. Bivolaru's proclivity for lactating women could be just another twist of his sick mind. A rather innocent one, as compared to his other twists. Unfortunately, 'the anecdotal reports of women being pressurised to terminate their pregnancies' are facts, not just anecdotal reports... Not that I would expect you to believe.   138   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 09 June 2009   Azoth, I don't know where do you have the information you posted there, but I can asure you that they aren't true. Leena wrote to Mr. Nylund in the summer of 2007 and he answered he will review the case. I wrote him in august 2008 and informed him also about the latest events: the expelling from the IYF. He received all the important information put on the forum including the fact that his landsman, Mr. Seppo Isotalo isn't supporting MISA at OSCE anymore. After the first information I sent to him, he replied the same thing as he did in Leena's case: I will review the case and he added "but I am now retiring and will not engage in further discussions at the moment." As I wrote him again, that he allready said this a year ago and that I am dissapointed by his attitude, he answered: "During the ongoing legal process i Romania, to which I might be called, I cannot do anything else for the moment, than what I am doing. What I am doing , naturally,you cannot have any knowledge. I am assured that you in your capacity do your best for the victims at the moment. In the meantime, nobody is forgotten." This was on the 9.09.2008.   139   RESPOND    EDIT     EMAIL mahacutra  DANGEROUS MAD MAN   mahacutra responded on 09 June 2009   Azoth, Last week I sent him our analysis of his report on MISA and Bivolaru, but I got no answer till know. I suppose, he doesn't use the email address that I have. And I don't know where to get his new one. As Sara said, if you have any email address of somebody working in this field in Sweden, it would be nice if you could give it to us, so we can send the above mentioned analysis and many other important information. Thanks a lot.   140   RESPOND    EDIT     EMAIL mahacutra  DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Leena responded on 09 June 2009   Sara You are right. He spoke in his own name, not in the name of any organization. Whatever, should he ever change his mind, he'll become a high-rank freemason, just like it happened with Shri Ajita. Not that he hadn't been warned against that. Yet, he wasn't turned away by MISA's techniques. :)   141   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 30 July 2009   There are so many threads on Bivolaru, MISA and the Tara Yoga Centre and I can't remember which one it was in which I mentioned the senior MISA member who had been imprisoned for cultivating a cannabis farm. Anyway, I might as well bump this thread, but if anyone wants to find the relevant news item you need to search google for "Un membru coordonator MISA, arestat in cadrul Operatiunii" and then use google translate for an English version. Google translation isn't great it's clear to see that this person, Adrian Dumitru, called the "king of cannabis", a senior MISA member made 150,000 euros growing, processing and selling cannabis. Just wanted to share   142   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   a.k. responded on 31 July 2009   Maria when you read answer from reptilian you will underestand what is silly girl, who knows nothing, writing and what is answer from somebody who knows something and might criticised the person but based on facts known to him. Next time you write pleas try to be like reptilian.   143   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   fenula responded on 31 July 2009   Right. I always wonder about the ortodox christianity mix too. Might be it is good reference frame in a way for romanian students with baground in ortodox christinity. Are you Romanian?   144   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   fenula responded on 31 July 2009   Maria you are very bitter. How they harmed you personaly ?   145   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 31 July 2009   I think that Maria sounds very distressed and traumatised. Given what I know about MISA this is completely understandable. fenula Has it crossed your mind that by telling someone who is clearly very distressed that they sound "bitter" that you come across very badly yourself? Next time you might want to consider including one of the usual cultic platitudes in your post. At least a patronising sentence about how you have compassion for whoever it is you are criticising is the usual strategy. Alternatively you could engage your brain and your heart and actually have some genuine human feeling for someone who is so distressed. You might want to question why so many people are being damaged by MISA. I appreciate that this might be an unrealistic demand of someone in your position but it would be great if you could at least try.   146   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   Raul responded on 04 October 2009   Bumpity bump bump. You can't hide from the truth!   147   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 08 November 2009   You definitely cannot hide from the truth, as all the recent news reports in the Finnish and Danish press regarding the NATHA centres will confirm.   148   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 08 December 2009   Raul, I would really, really be interested in your report any update re this?   149   RESPOND    EDIT   DANGEROUS MAD MAN   nemesis responded on 26 January 2010   I just thought that I might as well bump this so that all 3 threads are visible The search function on this site seems a little cranky and I couldn't find this thread at all yesterday   150   RESPOND    EDIT